At 12:29 9/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:

>P.S.  It's slightly worrying that Durability is listed as "25 cycles
>minimum"...
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Andy.

This is a typical spec for these kind of connectors from any vendor - AMP
has the same rating (catalog 1307515 page 5, 10, 14, 16, etc). These are
intended to be memory connectors, and how many times are you going to
remove and add memory in a PC? Less than 25. The SIMM modules have a sort
of wiping action when you rotate it into the socket, which cleans the
contacts on every insertion (good), eventually this will wear through the
plating (not so good).

In my experience they will not suddenly fail on the 26th cycle. I will ask
our AMP techno-person what the "real" life rating is, but this may be a
case of specing the part for its intended use, not for the typical or
maximum life that the materials will deliver.

If it makes you feel any better, we've been using 40- and 72- SIMM sockets
for over 10 years and don't have a single failure. Some of our test boards
have had probably hundreds of insertion cycles and are still going strong.

It would be pretty easy to insert a SIMM into a socket, count the # of
times and look at the pads and connector contacts under a microscope every
50 cycles or so, and measure contact resistance. Volunteers?

- Bruce Boyes
---------------------------------------------------------
 Pretty nice socket boards & accessories for TINI Java
            /\/\/\/ Systronix /\/\/\/
Complete Systems for Rapid Embedded Control Development
tel:801.534.1017 fax:-1019  http://www.systronix.com
---------------------------------------------------------

.







----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Boyes" <bboyes@s...>
To: <simmstick@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [simmstick] Simm Sockets life cycles


> At 12:29 9/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >P.S.  It's slightly worrying that Durability is listed as "25 cycles
> >minimum"...
> >
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >Andy.
>
> This is a typical spec for these kind of connectors from any vendor - AMP
> has the same rating (catalog 1307515 page 5, 10, 14, 16, etc). These are
> intended to be memory connectors, and how many times are you going to
> remove and add memory in a PC? Less than 25. The SIMM modules have a sort
> of wiping action when you rotate it into the socket, which cleans the
> contacts on every insertion (good), eventually this will wear through the
> plating (not so good).
> In my experience they will not suddenly fail on the 26th cycle. I will ask
> our AMP techno-person what the "real" life rating is, but this may be a
> case of specing the part for its intended use, not for the typical or
> maximum life that the materials will deliver.

Good point, there's no advantage for them to guarantee the spec higher than
is needed I suppose.


> If it makes you feel any better, we've been using 40- and 72- SIMM sockets
> for over 10 years and don't have a single failure. Some of our test boards
> have had probably hundreds of insertion cycles and are still going strong.

That's a relief, I'm not too worried about most of the ones I use in
products, thay have no more than a 2 or 3 cycles at most, but the old DT001
is likely to get more wear than most and SIMM sockets are such a pain to
unsolder.















.

The Dontronics pages indicate a limitation in programming the DT102 
in the slot 1 (programming slot) of the DT001. My questions are:

Can the DT102 be programmed in DT001 slot 1? I think it can. ..and
Are there any limitations (traps for young players) of the DT102 in 
slot 1?


Thanks & Regards
Robert Eddy

rob.eddy@b... wrote:
> The Dontronics pages indicate a limitation in programming the DT102
> in the slot 1 (programming slot) of the DT001. My questions are:
> 
> Can the DT102 be programmed in DT001 slot 1? I think it can. ..and
> Are there any limitations (traps for young players) of the DT102 in
> slot 1?
> 
> Thanks & Regards
> Robert Eddy

Hi Rob,
The Dontronics pages need a real update I know, the dt001 being one of
the main offenders.
Promises from users to fix it have all fallen down.
as i have massively updated the shopping cart area, I'll get in and fix
some of the assembly pages as well. these have been hybrid-ed (is that a
word) over a period of about 4 years, and info has just been tacked on.

having said that, i just wonder why you ask this question.
The PICmicro's can only been programmed by putting them in slot one.
there is no other programming slot.

For AVR users that have been using a dt001 board, you never put an avr
into slot 1, as the dt001 was designed as a PICmicro programmer.

Cheers Don...

Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

AVR programing

First, Am I in the right E-forum?

n dontronic web page runavr.html on 
line 16 the mention of
" You do need NOT learn PBasic or STAMP basic.."

I know PB or PowerBasic
http://www.powerbasic.com/ and this is a big BASIC compiler.
I program with it.

My questions are 
1) What does Pbasic stands for?

2) Could I use Powerbasic to prgram the AVR?

An enquiring mind  Guy

Could an SDRAM  or FLASH memory be used as memory data
collector for the AVR 2313 or 4433?
Which brand  as I need about 1 Meg of storage?
Cheers   Guy

Guy North wrote:
> 
> 
> AVR programing
> 
> First, Am I in the right E-forum?

yes, here if it is to do with SimmStick, or there are now two avr
forums, not counting the old South African one that I think Kalle is now
closing. One on egroups and another with listbot, the list bot one is
fairly quiet.

If users can help here in this forum, they certainly will.


> n dontronic web page runavr.html on
> line 16 the mention of
> " You do need NOT learn PBasic or STAMP basic.."
> 
> I know PB or PowerBasic
> http://www.powerbasic.com/ and this is a big BASIC compiler.
> I program with it.

> My questions are
> 1) What does Pbasic stands for?

Pbasic is what Parallax came up with as an abbreviation of Pic Basic. i
have seen other companies use this term for their products also, however
there is no trademark rego on it.

> 2) Could I use Powerbasic to prgram the AVR?

No, you simply use Bascom-ave the free demo version, it is a variant of
standard basic, but designed to be used with micros, namely the 8051 and
AVR family.

Cheers Don...

> An enquiring mind  Guy

Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

Guy North wrote:

> Could an SDRAM  or FLASH memory be used as memory data
> collector for the AVR 2313 or 4433?
> Which brand  as I need about 1 Meg of storage?
> Cheers   Guy

yes but don't think because the SimmStick bus uses an old memory
standard, that it was designed to interface directly with a SimmStck
module, as it isn't.

However you will need interfacing circuitry to control the row and
column address timing of drams, and srams need special interfacing to
expand the address and data bus as well as the individual control
signals.

we are putting together the new dt107 that should be able to make use of
the basicx ram sandwich board,. This expands the adressing capabilities
of the 8515. 

For drams, there has been many designs presented on the web, I thought I
had one on my files page, but can't see it.

The ave groups may have something further, or a search could locate more
details.

Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

--- In simmstick@egroups.com, "Guy North" <aufempen@d...> wrote:
> Could an SDRAM  or FLASH memory be used as memory data
> collector for the AVR 2313 or 4433?
> Which brand  as I need about 1 Meg of storage?
> Cheers   Guy

if you need 1 M Bit use AT45DB011
if you need 1 M Byte use AT45D081

they are easy to connect (SPI) and easy to program
AVR Basic has include libraries for them but it would
take long to write the support code using any compiler/assembler

cheers
antti

Lars
Thank you for your very informatif response.
- You mentioned AVR memory being straightforward and PIC memory 
being by bank switching. Very good info. That's reminds me trying to
program the DOS memory above 1 meg. A nightmare with these bank 
swicthing.
- You mentioned ASSEMBLER. I use A86 assembler but this is for the 
Intel family of 386 and higher. What about the MICROCONTROLLER for
the 
AVR. Can you  program the AVR using WHICH type of  assembler?
- Now may be a stupid question. 
Could you program the AVR directly without using a MICROCONTROLLER. 
Say if you had only one transistor to 
high put high voltage. May be before this question I should ask.
- What is the principle of the AVR microcontroler. Does it "burn" 
using a 18 volts voltage or what does it mecanically and 
electrically do to the array to "burnt" it?
- You mentioned BUS SPI and I2C - any good website for some good 
information?
- 14 pins on the AVR  AT90S2313. I hope I am correct. Will the 
ATmega 163 will come with more or less pins?

A curious newbie  Guy




--- In simmstick@egroups.com, "Lars Wictorsson" <lars@l...> wrote:
> Hi Guy,
> 
> I will try to answer some of your questions...
> 
> > I just want to check if I got my big picture right.
> > The Simmstick is a printed circuit board which has a PIC 
> > microprocessor on it and can be pushed in (like clipped) onto
> > other boards made by DONtronics only.
> > The AVR is from AMTEL and is a microcontroller which just push
> > in a 20 or 40 pins sockets.
> 
> Well, the SimmStick platform has nothing to do with PIC or AVR etc.
> it is just the concept how the boards looks like in dimensions,
> signals etc. on the bus. A SimmStick board can be equipped with
> any microcontroller of your choice and today there are SimmStick
> boards that has a PICmicro controller, Atmel 8051, Atmel AVR and
> Scenix SX etc.
> 
> > The simmstick PIC xx877 can run at 20Mhz but the AVR will only
run 
> > at 4 Mhz? is that correct?
> 
> Same here, the "SimmStick PIC xx877" as you refer to above is a
> simmstick board (DT106) with a PICmicro controller type 16F877.
> PICmicro's need to divide the chrystal speed by 4 when running,
> so 20Mhz gives you 5MIPS (5 miljon in instructions per second),
> while the AVR has 1MIPS/1Mhz and some AVR's has max speed of
> 4Mhz, some 6Mhz-10Mhz while the fastest (but not so usable IMO)
> has 12Mhz (=AT90S1200). So comparing the 16F877 running at 20Mhz
> and the AT90S8535 (which has ADC as the 877) runs at 8Mhz, gives
> the AVR a 8/5 more speed. The PICmicro has less code memory
> than the AVR, so you could fit more program into it. The PICmicro
> has also a strange memory bacnk switching that you have to think
> of when using e.g. Assembler, the AVR has a straight memory, no
> hassles at all.
> 
> > The simmstick can be programmed in C, QBASIC and TASM
> > The AVR can be programmed - I don't know...
> 
> Same here as well, the SimmStick has nothing to do with
> languages, it is the controller on the SimmStick that has to
> do with that. So both a controller of PICmicro or an AVR
> on a SimmStick board can be programmed in either Assembler,
> C, Basic etc. (any language that is supported for the controller).
> 
> > What is the main use of the simmstick and the AVR?
> 
> This is personal, but I prefer AVR before PICmicro, your
> question above should be written "What is the main use of
> the PICmicro and the AVR" (since SimmStick has nothing to
> do with it).
> 
> > Can a simmstick programmer board be used to program also an AVR?
> 
> yes, check out the DT006 board that is an AVR platform and
> can be used as a base board for programming other SimmStick
> boards with an AVR controller on it.
> 
> > The memory of a simmstick is a sort of EEPROM? is this correct?
> > Is the memory of the AVR also an EEPROM?
> 
> Memory is 3 things:
> 
> Code Memory (where you store your program) is normally FLASH.
> User RAM    (where you store variables) is RAM or registers.
> User EEPROM (where you store parameters to be saved when power is 
off).
> 
> Both PICmicro and AVR has both of these memories depending on
> chip type, they have more or less of them.
> 
> > In both cases is it possible to add extra EEPROM to a simmstick
or 
an 
> > AVR?
> 
> Yes, through either SPI or I2C busses.
> 
> > The PIC 16F877 is the latest in the line of PIC
> > What about with AMTEL, what is the latest model number
> 
> AVR is a family, so you can't say there is any latest,
> new arrives when new perephials comes and more memory,
> but the latest that will come in AVR is the ATmega163
> (next year), which is an upgrade of AT90S8535, which
> has 8k code, 512bytes RAM & 512bytes EEPROM.
> 
> AVR's that are used today is:
> 
> AT90S2313: 2k Code, 128bytes RAM, 128bytes EEPROM, no ADC
> AT90S8515: 8k Code, 512bytes RAM, 512bytes EEPROM, no ADC but
>            possibility to add extra 64k SRAM.
> AT90S8535: 8k Code, 512bytes RAM, 512bytes EEPROM, 8ch 10bit ADC but
>            no possibility to add extra RAM (unless you make
>            software support for it).
> 
> SimmStick boards for the above excists:
> 
> AT90S2313: DT104, DT006 or the new SIMM101 from us (availible in 2 
weeks)
> AT90S8515: DT103 or the new DT107 comming soon.
> AT90S8535: SIMM100
> 
> > Most probably I am going to ask a question totally out of context 
and 
> >  be booted out by the moderator of this group. In all the 
electronics 
> > magazine I see the word BASIC STAMP. I can see roughly the 
difference 
> > between BASIC STAMP and PIC. BASIC STAMP is NOT as fast as PIC, 
but 
> > what are the other differences.
> 
> Don't be affraid to ask, the BASICstamp is a PICmicro, but it
> is running a BASIC interpreter, so the speed is low compared to
> if you use the same controller as the BASICstamp is built upon,
> but program it in Assemlber or a BASIC compiler, you get *100
> the speed (or so).
> 
> Regards
> 
> /Lars
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> LAWICEL / SWEDEN           Phone  : +46 (0)451 - 598 77
> Lars Wictorsson            Fax    : +46 (0)451 - 598 78
> E-mail: lars@l...   WWW    : http://www.lawicel.com
> 
> Embedded hardware/software together with 8051/C16x/AVR and 
> smart distributed I/O with CAN  (Controller Area Network).
> See CANDIP at http://www.lawicel.com/candip/   AVR+SJA1000
> ----------------------------------------------------------

Hello Andy
Thanks for your answers.
My big picture is getting clearer.

- ASSEMBLER. As you know with previous posting I have the A86
assembler for the 386 intel microprocessors.
What assembler have you got for the PIC controller? 

- You mentioned good Tutorials on line. Any particular webiste you 
have in mind?

- Very interesting here. I did not know that the same chip can come 
(OTP) One Time Programmable and that  PIC and AVR have HARVARD 
architecture.
- Andy you mentioned ""
> If you go to the microchip
> website and look at the Line Card you will get a good overview of 
> all of the permutations available. 
What is a LINE CARD? never heard of it

- I like the information on PICLIST.

Cheers   Guy



--- In simmstick@egroups.com, "Andy Howard" <musica@m...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Guy North" <aufempen@d...>
>  To: <simmstick@egroups.com>
>  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 7:14 AM
>  Subject: [simmstick] newbies:differences between simmstick and AVR?
> 
> 
>  > I just want to check if I got my big picture right.
> > The Simmstick is a printed circuit board which has a PIC
> > microprocessor on it and can be pushed in (like clipped) onto
> > other boards made by DONtronics only.
> 
>  Not quite, basically the Simmstick is just a ready-etched PCB.
> 
>  Simmstick is a standard way of making PCBs so that they can be 
plugged
> together on a bus made of standard 30pin SIMM sockets, the
Simmstick 
itself
> can contain almost anything you want.
> Some carry microcontrollers (PIC or AVR), others just peripherals, 
e.g.
> Don's relay card.
> There are also ones consisting entirely of holes to prototype your 
own
> circuitry on. There are many kinds of Simmstick from several
makers, 
though
> I believe Dontronics has the widest range.
> 
> You can make your own motherboards or fit a Simm socket to anything 
else
> you want to use Simmsticks with. You can also design your own 
Simmsticks and
> there is a prize competition to encourage people to do exactly this.
> 
> 
> > The AVR is from AMTEL and is a microcontroller which just push
> > in a 20 or 40 pins sockets.
> 
> Hmmm, I think you might be getting a little confused here, the 
16F877 is
> also a microcontroller, one of a large range made by a company 
called
> Microchip, it isn't anything to do with Simmsticks in the way you 
suggest,
> it's just that it can be mounted on one type of Simmstick PCB.
> 
> The AVR is ditto but made by Atmel. Either can be mounted on 
suitable
> Simmsticks. Both are available in standard IC type pinouts (DIP is 
the
> official name - Dual Inline Package). They are also available in 
various
> minature "surface mount" packages which are not really relevant to 
the
> beginning hobbyist. Most Simmsticks use the DIP type micros.
> 
> 
> > The simmstick PIC xx877 can run at 20Mhz but the AVR will only run
> > at 4 Mhz? is that correct?
> 
> In terms of speed, the Atmel AVR works differently to a PIC 
internally so
> for most commands a 4MHz AVR is roughly equivalent to a PIC running 
at 16MHz
> (this is an oversimplification but the principle holds good).
> 
> 
> > The simmstick can be programmed in C, QBASIC and TASM
> > The AVR can be programmed - I don't know...
> 
> There are a huge range of languages available for both PIC and AVR,
> including C, BASIC, Pascal, assembler and several that people have 
invented
> for the purpose e.g. JAL.
> 
> I'd *very strongly* recommend you start out by learning assembly 
language.
> Assembly language is simply instructions that work directly on the 
memory or
> pins of the chip and there are loads of good tutorials online.
> 
> Even if you plan to program in C, BASIC or whatever, you'll find 
that
> understanding assembler code makes programming in other languages a 
snap.
> Also there are some applications, e.g. when speed, timing or code 
size are
> critical, where assembler is your only option.
> 
> 
> > What is the main use of the simmstick and the AVR?
> 
> I use Simmsticks for prototyping products, making custom one-off 
products
> and testing code. I make data collection, telemetry and remote 
control
> equipment. All my stuff is done with PICs but all of it could 
equally be
> done with AVRs.
> 
> 
> > Can a simmstick programmer board be used to program also an AVR?
> 
> Yes, have a look at the Dontronics site for the AVR Simmsticks. The 
site is
> a bit confusing at first but all the info is there somewhere.
> 
> 
> > The memory of a simmstick is a sort of EEPROM? is this correct?
> 
> A Simmstick is just a PCB, you can fit anything you like onto it, 
including
> micros with built in EEPROM and also standalone EEPROM chips. The 
serial
> type is normally used.
> 
> 
> > Is the memory of the AVR also an EEPROM?
> 
> Both PIC and AVR have several different kinds of memory. Older ones 
have
> EPROM, which may be eraseable or One Time Programmable (OTP) which 
is used
> to hold the program you have written, they may also have smaller 
amounts of
> EEPROM and/or RAM to hold data. Both PIC and AVR have separate 
program and
> data memory, called Harvard architecture, unlike many earlier 
designs where
> data and program share the same memory areas.
> 
> PICs have different types of memory according to the model, all the 
ones
> with a C in the type number e.g. 12C671, 16C84, 17Cxxx, 18Cxxx have 
EPROM
> memory and are usually available in an expensive eraseable version 
for
> development and a cheaper OTP version for production.
> 
> More recently they have introduced Flash EEPROM for the program 
memory on
> some models and these have an F in the type number, e.g. 16F84, 
16F877, they
> have pre-announced lots of future Flash versions of their chips but 
not many
> are available yet. These models can be reprogrammed very simply and 
are
> certainly the best bet for a beginner.
> 
> I don't know enough about the AVR range to answer for them, but I'm 
sure
> Atmel's site has all the info.
> 
> 
> > In both cases is it possible to add extra EEPROM to a simmstick
or 
an
> > AVR?
> 
>  Yes.
> 
> 
> > The PIC 16F877 is the latest in the line of PIC
> 
> That's not quite true, the 17C series and 18C series of PICs have 
newer
> members and
> there are new products arriving almost monthly.  In this context 
however,
> new doesn't automatically mean better, sometimes the newer model 
just adds
> (or removes) some of the on-chip peripherals. If you go to the 
microchip
> website and look at the Line Card you will get a good overview of 
all of the
> permutations available.
> For your first projects the 16F84 and 16F87x series are probably
the 
best
> bet.
> 
> 
> > Most probably I am going to ask a question totally out of context 
and
> >  be booted out by the moderator of this group. In all the 
electronics
> > magazine I see the word BASIC STAMP. I can see roughly the 
difference
> > between BASIC STAMP and PIC. BASIC STAMP is NOT as fast as PIC, 
but
> > what are the other differences.
> 
> The BASIC Stamp is a small PCB designed to plug into an IC socket 
which
> contains a surface-mount package PIC, an oscillator, power
regulator 
and a
> few other components plus a built-in BASIC language interpreter. 
This last
> item is what makes it run so slowly.
> 
> It's also a very expensive way to buy a $5 PIC in my opinion. For 
very
> little more you can buy a PIC and a copy of the PICBASIC compiler 
which you
> can then use to program any number of PICs in exactly the same BASIC
> language, and it will run 20 times faster at least.
> 
> If you're tryng to decide whether to go for PIC or AVR I'd suggest 
to start
> with PICs if only because there is so much support for them 
available
> online. It's easy to convert over to AVR if they have some feature 
not
> available on a PIC.
> 
> The main advantage of AVRs is that they have larger memory, though 
I've not
> yet run out of space on the PICs that I use here. I don't know 
enough about
> AVR to give a full comparison here but I'm sure someone else will
be 
able to
> help.
> 
> You can download the MPLAB development tools for the PIC, it's free 
from
> microchip.com or
> even better, contact your local Microchip dealer and get the
current 
CD
> which contains the tools and all the datasheet and application
notes 
you
> could want.
> 
> 
> > Moderator of this group, please remember I am NOT trying to be
> > offensive to the group but trying to get a big picture in the 
scene
> > of
> > microcontrollers where I am going to spend a few of dollars inthe
> > months to come.
> > A very curious newbies.
> 
> 
> Don't worry about asking questions Guy, we all had to start learning
> somewhere.
> 
> Remember, the only stupid question is the one you _don't_ ask.
> 
> 
>  Spend some time browsing the DOntronics site www.dontronics.com, 
and
>  www.simmstick.com as well as www.microchip.com and www.atmel.com 
(note that
>  Atmel sell two incompatible ranges of microcontroller, the AVR 
which we are
>  discussing here and which is broadly similar to the PIC range, and 
8051
>  types). That should give you some background on all of this.
> 
>  There are also webrings of sites that deal with PICs and AVRs, you 
can
>  probably find them via www.webring.com. There is a huge amount of 
really
>  good info about these devices out there on the web.
> 
> 
>  But really I've saved the best bit until last.
> 
>  Before you do any of the above go to www.piclist.com/begin.htm and 
read
> that
>  and follow all the links, you'll not find a better learning 
resource
>  anywhere. It's a beginners guide compiled by one of the moderators 
of the
>  PICList mailing list.
> 
>  The PICList is a quite high volume mailing list dealing with 
anything to do
>  with the PIC processor. It's well worth subscribing to if you can 
handle
> the
>  volume of messages. As a complete beginner you may find some of it 
quite
>  technical, but it is also a wealth of useful information and
advice 
for
>  newbies too. I'd suggest you sign up (full details at 
www.piclist.com) and
>  read the list for a couple of weeks to get the flavour of it before
>  attempting to post any questions. There is a very detailed FAQ 
about using
>  the list, also at piclist.com, which you should print out and keep.
> 
> 
>  I hope this has made things a bit clearer for you. Do feel free to 
ask for
>  anything above to be clarified if you're not sure. And keep on 
asking
>  questions!
> 
>  Cheers
> 
>  Andy.
> 
> 
> 
>  .

Hello Andy
Thanks for your answers.
My big picture is getting clearer.

- ASSEMBLER. As you know with previous posting I have the A86
assembler for the 386 intel microprocessors.
What assembler have you got for the PIC controller? 

- You mentioned good Tutorials on line. Any particular webiste you 
have in mind? I learned assembly seriously from 95 to 98. But I have 
not looked at any NEW Tutorials on line since then. I have been 
distracted by learning PERL and doing web pages.
Any good tutorial sites appreciated. 

- Very interesting here. I did not know that the same chip can come 
(OTP) One Time Programmable and that  PIC and AVR have HARVARD 
architecture.
- Andy you mentioned ""
> If you go to the microchip
> website and look at the Line Card you will get a good overview of 
> all of the permutations available. 
What is a LINE CARD? never heard of it...

- I like the information on PICLIST.

Cheers   Guy



--- In simmstick@egroups.com, "Andy Howard" <musica@m...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Guy North" <aufempen@d...>
>  To: <simmstick@egroups.com>
>  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 7:14 AM
>  Subject: [simmstick] newbies:differences between simmstick and AVR?
> 
> 
>  > I just want to check if I got my big picture right.
> > The Simmstick is a printed circuit board which has a PIC
> > microprocessor on it and can be pushed in (like clipped) onto
> > other boards made by DONtronics only.
> 
>  Not quite, basically the Simmstick is just a ready-etched PCB.
> 
>  Simmstick is a standard way of making PCBs so that they can be 
plugged
> together on a bus made of standard 30pin SIMM sockets, the
Simmstick 
itself
> can contain almost anything you want.
> Some carry microcontrollers (PIC or AVR), others just peripherals, 
e.g.
> Don's relay card.
> There are also ones consisting entirely of holes to prototype your 
own
> circuitry on. There are many kinds of Simmstick from several
makers, 
though
> I believe Dontronics has the widest range.
> 
> You can make your own motherboards or fit a Simm socket to anything 
else
> you want to use Simmsticks with. You can also design your own 
Simmsticks and
> there is a prize competition to encourage people to do exactly this.
> 
> 
> > The AVR is from AMTEL and is a microcontroller which just push
> > in a 20 or 40 pins sockets.
> 
> Hmmm, I think you might be getting a little confused here, the 
16F877 is
> also a microcontroller, one of a large range made by a company 
called
> Microchip, it isn't anything to do with Simmsticks in the way you 
suggest,
> it's just that it can be mounted on one type of Simmstick PCB.
> 
> The AVR is ditto but made by Atmel. Either can be mounted on 
suitable
> Simmsticks. Both are available in standard IC type pinouts (DIP is 
the
> official name - Dual Inline Package). They are also available in 
various
> minature "surface mount" packages which are not really relevant to 
the
> beginning hobbyist. Most Simmsticks use the DIP type micros.
> 
> 
> > The simmstick PIC xx877 can run at 20Mhz but the AVR will only run
> > at 4 Mhz? is that correct?
> 
> In terms of speed, the Atmel AVR works differently to a PIC 
internally so
> for most commands a 4MHz AVR is roughly equivalent to a PIC running 
at 16MHz
> (this is an oversimplification but the principle holds good).
> 
> 
> > The simmstick can be programmed in C, QBASIC and TASM
> > The AVR can be programmed - I don't know...
> 
> There are a huge range of languages available for both PIC and AVR,
> including C, BASIC, Pascal, assembler and several that people have 
invented
> for the purpose e.g. JAL.
> 
> I'd *very strongly* recommend you start out by learning assembly 
language.
> Assembly language is simply instructions that work directly on the 
memory or
> pins of the chip and there are loads of good tutorials online.
> 
> Even if you plan to program in C, BASIC or whatever, you'll find 
that
> understanding assembler code makes programming in other languages a 
snap.
> Also there are some applications, e.g. when speed, timing or code 
size are
> critical, where assembler is your only option.
> 
> 
> > What is the main use of the simmstick and the AVR?
> 
> I use Simmsticks for prototyping products, making custom one-off 
products
> and testing code. I make data collection, telemetry and remote 
control
> equipment. All my stuff is done with PICs but all of it could 
equally be
> done with AVRs.
> 
> 
> > Can a simmstick programmer board be used to program also an AVR?
> 
> Yes, have a look at the Dontronics site for the AVR Simmsticks. The 
site is
> a bit confusing at first but all the info is there somewhere.
> 
> 
> > The memory of a simmstick is a sort of EEPROM? is this correct?
> 
> A Simmstick is just a PCB, you can fit anything you like onto it, 
including
> micros with built in EEPROM and also standalone EEPROM chips. The 
serial
> type is normally used.
> 
> 
> > Is the memory of the AVR also an EEPROM?
> 
> Both PIC and AVR have several different kinds of memory. Older ones 
have
> EPROM, which may be eraseable or One Time Programmable (OTP) which 
is used
> to hold the program you have written, they may also have smaller 
amounts of
> EEPROM and/or RAM to hold data. Both PIC and AVR have separate 
program and
> data memory, called Harvard architecture, unlike many earlier 
designs where
> data and program share the same memory areas.
> 
> PICs have different types of memory according to the model, all the 
ones
> with a C in the type number e.g. 12C671, 16C84, 17Cxxx, 18Cxxx have 
EPROM
> memory and are usually available in an expensive eraseable version 
for
> development and a cheaper OTP version for production.
> 
> More recently they have introduced Flash EEPROM for the program 
memory on
> some models and these have an F in the type number, e.g. 16F84, 
16F877, they
> have pre-announced lots of future Flash versions of their chips but 
not many
> are available yet. These models can be reprogrammed very simply and 
are
> certainly the best bet for a beginner.
> 
> I don't know enough about the AVR range to answer for them, but I'm 
sure
> Atmel's site has all the info.
> 
> 
> > In both cases is it possible to add extra EEPROM to a simmstick
or 
an
> > AVR?
> 
>  Yes.
> 
> 
> > The PIC 16F877 is the latest in the line of PIC
> 
> That's not quite true, the 17C series and 18C series of PICs have 
newer
> members and
> there are new products arriving almost monthly.  In this context 
however,
> new doesn't automatically mean better, sometimes the newer model 
just adds
> (or removes) some of the on-chip peripherals. If you go to the 
microchip
> website and look at the Line Card you will get a good overview of 
all of the
> permutations available.
> For your first projects the 16F84 and 16F87x series are probably
the 
best
> bet.
> 
> 
> > Most probably I am going to ask a question totally out of context 
and
> >  be booted out by the moderator of this group. In all the 
electronics
> > magazine I see the word BASIC STAMP. I can see roughly the 
difference
> > between BASIC STAMP and PIC. BASIC STAMP is NOT as fast as PIC, 
but
> > what are the other differences.
> 
> The BASIC Stamp is a small PCB designed to plug into an IC socket 
which
> contains a surface-mount package PIC, an oscillator, power
regulator 
and a
> few other components plus a built-in BASIC language interpreter. 
This last
> item is what makes it run so slowly.
> 
> It's also a very expensive way to buy a $5 PIC in my opinion. For 
very
> little more you can buy a PIC and a copy of the PICBASIC compiler 
which you
> can then use to program any number of PICs in exactly the same BASIC
> language, and it will run 20 times faster at least.
> 
> If you're tryng to decide whether to go for PIC or AVR I'd suggest 
to start
> with PICs if only because there is so much support for them 
available
> online. It's easy to convert over to AVR if they have some feature 
not
> available on a PIC.
> 
> The main advantage of AVRs is that they have larger memory, though 
I've not
> yet run out of space on the PICs that I use here. I don't know 
enough about
> AVR to give a full comparison here but I'm sure someone else will
be 
able to
> help.
> 
> You can download the MPLAB development tools for the PIC, it's free 
from
> microchip.com or
> even better, contact your local Microchip dealer and get the
current 
CD
> which contains the tools and all the datasheet and application
notes 
you
> could want.
> 
> 
> > Moderator of this group, please remember I am NOT trying to be
> > offensive to the group but trying to get a big picture in the 
scene
> > of
> > microcontrollers where I am going to spend a few of dollars inthe
> > months to come.
> > A very curious newbies.
> 
> 
> Don't worry about asking questions Guy, we all had to start learning
> somewhere.
> 
> Remember, the only stupid question is the one you _don't_ ask.
> 
> 
>  Spend some time browsing the DOntronics site www.dontronics.com, 
and
>  www.simmstick.com as well as www.microchip.com and www.atmel.com 
(note that
>  Atmel sell two incompatible ranges of microcontroller, the AVR 
which we are
>  discussing here and which is broadly similar to the PIC range, and 
8051
>  types). That should give you some background on all of this.
> 
>  There are also webrings of sites that deal with PICs and AVRs, you 
can
>  probably find them via www.webring.com. There is a huge amount of 
really
>  good info about these devices out there on the web.
> 
> 
>  But really I've saved the best bit until last.
> 
>  Before you do any of the above go to www.piclist.com/begin.htm and 
read
> that
>  and follow all the links, you'll not find a better learning 
resource
>  anywhere. It's a beginners guide compiled by one of the moderators 
of the
>  PICList mailing list.
> 
>  The PICList is a quite high volume mailing list dealing with 
anything to do
>  with the PIC processor. It's well worth subscribing to if you can 
handle
> the
>  volume of messages. As a complete beginner you may find some of it 
quite
>  technical, but it is also a wealth of useful information and
advice 
for
>  newbies too. I'd suggest you sign up (full details at 
www.piclist.com) and
>  read the list for a couple of weeks to get the flavour of it before
>  attempting to post any questions. There is a very detailed FAQ 
about using
>  the list, also at piclist.com, which you should print out and keep.
> 
> 
>  I hope this has made things a bit clearer for you. Do feel free to 
ask for
>  anything above to be clarified if you're not sure. And keep on 
asking
>  questions!
> 
>  Cheers
> 
>  Andy.
> 
> 
> 
>  .

Thanks Antti

The AT45D081 looks good with 1 M  Byte or 8 M bits.

What about writing in AVR Basic and cleaning it in Disassembler.
Any disassembler for microcontroller assembler?
Cheers  Guy


--- In simmstick@egroups.com, "Antti Lukats" <antti@c...> wrote:
> --- In simmstick@egroups.com, "Guy North" <aufempen@d...> wrote:
> > Could an SDRAM  or FLASH memory be used as memory data
> > collector for the AVR 2313 or 4433?
> > Which brand  as I need about 1 Meg of storage?
> > Cheers   Guy
> 
> if you need 1 M Bit use AT45DB011
> if you need 1 M Byte use AT45D081
> 
> they are easy to connect (SPI) and easy to program
> AVR Basic has include libraries for them but it would
> take long to write the support code using any compiler/assembler
> 
> cheers
> antti

What is the main USE of PIC and AVR?

Hi,

[snip9

>- You mentioned ASSEMBLER. I use A86 assembler but this is for the 
>Intel family of 386 and higher. What about the MICROCONTROLLER for
>the 
>AVR. Can you  program the AVR using WHICH type of  assembler?

There are several, surf over to Atmel:
http://www.atmel.com/atmel/products/prod203.htm
and download assemblers free (there are Atmels own and IAR's),
then there are other freeware's out there.
Start here: http://www.lawicel.com/e_links_avr.htm and
surf arround, you will be suprised to see what there is
when it comes to Atmel free stuff.

>- Now may be a stupid question. 
>Could you program the AVR directly without using a MICROCONTROLLER. 
>Say if you had only one transistor to 
>high put high voltage. May be before this question I should ask.
>- What is the principle of the AVR microcontroler. Does it "burn" 
>using a 18 volts voltage or what does it mecanically and 
>electrically do to the array to "burnt" it?

Not sure what you mean here, but the AVR has FLASH for the
program, this FLASH if programmed using a serial download
to the AVR. Now there are many free programmers ou there
and to start I suggest you look at the DT006 board, which
is both a programming board supporting some programmes or
just use BASCOM-AVR as a programmer and a parallel cable
to the printer port of the PC, that's it. No need for extra
power, it programs in a 5V system.

>- You mentioned BUS SPI and I2C - any good website for some good 
>information?

SPI is Motorola (I think) and I2C is Philips. I don't have any site
really for good info on it, but both are supported in e.g.
BASCOM-AVR.

>- 14 pins on the AVR  AT90S2313. I hope I am correct. Will the 
>ATmega 163 will come with more or less pins?


No, AT90S2313 has 20pins. The ATmega163 will have 40Pins (if it
is in DIP package) or 44pins in QFTP/PLCC.

/Lars

----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy North" <aufempen@d...>
To: <simmstick@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [simmstick] newbies:differences between simmstick and AVR?


>
> Hello Andy
> Thanks for your answers.
> My big picture is getting clearer.
>
> - ASSEMBLER. As you know with previous posting I have the A86
> assembler for the 386 intel microprocessors.
> What assembler have you got for the PIC controller?

I use the Microchip MPLAB development environment which includes their MPASM
assembler. You can download it for free from microchip.com or get their CD
from your local Microchip distributor, who will be listed on the website.



> - You mentioned good Tutorials on line. Any particular webiste you
> have in mind?

I don't recall where I started, but the beginners page at piclist.com lists
most of them.
There are some books that are very good too. Easy Pic'n by David Benson is
about the best
beginner's book I know of and had loads of code examples. THe other books in
the series are
also pretty good but it's a bit expensive if you plan to buy them all.


> - Very interesting here. I did not know that the same chip can come
> (OTP) One Time Programmable and that  PIC and AVR have HARVARD
> architecture.
> - Andy you mentioned ""
> > If you go to the microchip
> > website and look at the Line Card you will get a good overview of
> > all of the permutations available.
> What is a LINE CARD? never heard of it

It's a comparative list of their product lines. You can't miss it, it's
advertised on their front page.

> - I like the information on PICLIST.

It's the best resource you'll find for any processor anywhere (in my
opinion).





















.

Hi all,
What is the scoop on running SIMstick-LINUX? Has anyone out there tried this
yet. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question.

John
-----Original Message-----
From: Don McKenzie <don@d...>
To: simmstick@egroups.com <simmstick@egroups.com>
Date: Friday, 8 September 2000 12:20
Subject: Re: [simmstick] Newbies:What does PBASIC stands for?


>
>
>
>Guy North wrote:
>>
>>
>> AVR programing
>>
>> First, Am I in the right E-forum?
>
>yes, here if it is to do with SimmStick, or there are now two avr
>forums, not counting the old South African one that I think Kalle is now
>closing. One on egroups and another with listbot, the list bot one is
>fairly quiet.
>
>If users can help here in this forum, they certainly will.
>
>
>> n dontronic web page runavr.html on
>> line 16 the mention of
>> " You do need NOT learn PBasic or STAMP basic.."
>>
>> I know PB or PowerBasic
>> http://www.powerbasic.com/ and this is a big BASIC compiler.
>> I program with it.
>
>> My questions are
>> 1) What does Pbasic stands for?
>
>Pbasic is what Parallax came up with as an abbreviation of Pic Basic. i
>have seen other companies use this term for their products also, however
>there is no trademark rego on it.
>
>> 2) Could I use Powerbasic to prgram the AVR?
>
>No, you simply use Bascom-ave the free demo version, it is a variant of
>standard basic, but designed to be used with micros, namely the 8051 and
>AVR family.
>
>Cheers Don...
>
>> An enquiring mind  Guy
>
>Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com
>
>The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
>Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
>The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html
>
>To Post a message, send it to:   simmstick@e...
>
>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: simmstick-unsubscribe@e...
>

Hi and another thing,
What is the scoop on these credit cards? I'm just about to chuck my
mastercard in in favour of something else and this might just be it..

Regards
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Don McKenzie <don@d...>
To: simmstick@egroups.com <simmstick@egroups.com>
Date: Friday, 8 September 2000 3:22
Subject: Re: [simmstick] newbie: AVR memory SDRAM, FLASH memory to extend
EEPROM


>
>
>Guy North wrote:
>
>> Could an SDRAM  or FLASH memory be used as memory data
>> collector for the AVR 2313 or 4433?
>> Which brand  as I need about 1 Meg of storage?
>> Cheers   Guy
>
>yes but don't think because the SimmStick bus uses an old memory
>standard, that it was designed to interface directly with a SimmStck
>module, as it isn't.
>
>However you will need interfacing circuitry to control the row and
>column address timing of drams, and srams need special interfacing to
>expand the address and data bus as well as the individual control
>signals.
>
>we are putting together the new dt107 that should be able to make use of
>the basicx ram sandwich board,. This expands the adressing capabilities
>of the 8515.
>
>For drams, there has been many designs presented on the web, I thought I
>had one on my files page, but can't see it.
>
>The ave groups may have something further, or a search could locate more
>details.
>
>Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com
>
>The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
>Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
>The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html
>
>To Post a message, send it to:   simmstick@e...
>
>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: simmstick-unsubscribe@e...
>

Cygnus Logic Systems wrote:
> Hi all,
> What is the scoop on running SIMstick-LINUX? Has anyone out there tried this
> yet. Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question.
> 
> John

SimmStick is a hardware platform, and no real direct association with an
operating system like DOS, Windows, Linux, or anything else.

Same as someone recently explained on this list that SimmStick isn't a
programming language specific, as what we are talking about is a
hardware platform.

And it isn't Micro specific, as we have PIC, 8051, AVR, and Scenix
running on it. And I'm sure others will follow in the years to come.

I noticed Antti Lukats, (Hi Antti) the original designer of SimmStick,
responded on this list to a question recently. Years ago, he said the Z8
could be used in the 18 pin PIC socket if rotated 180 degrees, which I'm
sure is true, but I have never heard of anyone trying this yet. Mind
you, I never found the right chip to suit the pinout to even suggest
anyone try it.

If the question was, "Can I burn a PIC16F84 using a DT001 board from my
Linux machine"?, then the answer is yes, as someone has gone to the
trouble to write the driver to do this. Details are on the DT001 page.

So, it's really all about software drivers.

All communications between a SimmStick and any PC to date, have used the
serial, parallel port, or USB bus for data exchange or software
programming. 

The appropriate Linux drivers to suit your application, means you will
then have SimmStick-Linux connectivity.

Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

SimmStick Application:  by Peter Averill.
I've just completed an interface from the Dalsemi Tini to a Simmstick
mother board so I can use your peripheral cards.
http://www.geocities.com/microcontrollers/tini/p8255/p8255.html

Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

We're designing the next generation of our STEP (Systronix Tini Engineering
Platform) and are thinking about adding at least a single simmstick socket.
Bus loading on TINI is an important design consideration, so cables and
multiple CMOS loads per plug-on are not advisable. Peter Averill may have the
best solution - adding an 82C55 between the TINI bus and simmstick. The 82C55
is not a particular joy to use (IMHO) but in this case it may be a good
choice. We've looked at using a Xilinx CPLD but each bit of a register takes a
whole function block (we hit this in working on our SBX2 expansion board), so
24 bidirectional bits takes 48 blocks right there, requiring at least a Xilinx
9572 (72 blocks) for example. Still the Xilinx would roll it all up into one
part, so we may opt for that.

Anyway, I digress from the point of this message which is to solicit input
from those of you on the simmstick list who also have an interest in TINI
embedded Java. Is there enough interest in mixing TINI and simmstick to
justify us doing this?

How "thick" are the DT203 and DT205 boards, i.e. how much clearance on each
side (component and solder) of the board is needed? Also the USB simm would be
of interest.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Bruce Boyes

PS for those of you not familiar with TINI, there are links on our site. We
produce sockets boards including STEP.IR with IrDA hardware, enabling you to
use a PalmOS PDA as the "user interface" to TINI.

---- Great Development Boards ----
  TILT and STEP for TINI Java
Systronix: Salt Lake City Utah, USA
 801-534-1017 www.systronix.com

Bruce Boyes Systronix wrote:

> How "thick" are the DT203 and DT205 boards, i.e. how much clearance on each
> side (component and solder) of the board is needed? Also the USB simm would be
> of interest.

Hi Bruce,
generally Simm Bus sockets are set .3" apart. The reason for this is
that dual sockets are at .3" centers and you can purchase dual sockets
as cheap as singles in most cases.

If you have an 8 slot motherboard, you would possibly only gets 4 cards
in it because of the height of the components. My relay board with a
high profile relay in it, would mean you could only use every 5th slot.
This means 2 relay cards only in an 8 slot motherboard.

The dt205 has a Simm Bus input and output, so these can be cascaded by
plugging them end for end using female/male header pins. Visualize
sitting them end for end on a table top. 4 boards or 16 relays can be
driven in this manner.

Have a look at:
http://www.dontronics.com/dt205.html for more details.

If you used all Surface mount on general boards, then sure you could
have have boards .3" apart.

Much the same principle applies to the solder side of the board.
We have allowed for rj-45's to be mounted on the solder side of the
dt102 SimmStick.
if this was placed in the last slot, then the components on the solder
side could be ignored as far as height is concerned.

The SimmStick concept allows for modular expansion. Using a dt204 or
dt005, or off the shelf vero board, you can easily expand the bus to any
desired length. Well, at least within respectable signal loss limits.

It may well be that after completing a project, you can design your own
motherboard to suit.
In many cases, SimmStick can be used for easy R&D, then final design can
be done on a new single printed circuit board design, and the SimmStick
modules can then be used for the next project, and not in the final
design at all.

Then again, because of price, many users design products around
SimmStick modules. The basic dt101 and dt104 are very popular for stand
alone applications.

Robert Severson, the man that designed USBSIMM is on this list, so he
will possibly contact you directly on that issue.

Cheers Don...

Don McKenzie    mailto:don@d...      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

> Bruce Boyes Systronix wrote:

> Robert Severson, the man that designed USBSIMM is on this list, so he
> will possibly contact you directly on that issue.

Don (and Bruce),

I've kinda been in the loop already. In fact, I'm guilty of starting this 
TINI/SimmStick idea. A buddy of mine (Joe) has a TINI and was interested in 
creating this design, but about the time he and I started hashing out ideas 
he became very busy. Joe was investigating the approach of using a WSI part 
to do the interfacing.

I've dropped out of listening to the TINI list because of demands on my 
time. I know that there have been at least a few people that have asked for 
TINI hardware interfacing via a route OTHER THAN THE !@$#? ONE WIRE 
INTERFACE. Not that I'm opposed to the 1-wire, but it shouldn't be used as 
a cure-all. Just try interfacing a 50 key keypad to a TINI...

TINI is a cool thing. But java-on-a-stick that you can interface very few 
things to isn't much of an embedded system. I'll agree with Karl Bongers 
who (on the TINI list) stated that the TINI should not use an address bus, 
but a peripheral bus. (I also agree with the non-java-but-c-instead 
comments.)

A board that connects the SimmStick stuff to TINI opens up the Ethernet 
domain to "SimmStickers" and  real-world interfacing to, uh, "TINI-ites".

-Rob Severson

--- In simmstick@egroups.com, "Guy North" <aufempen@d...> wrote:
> Thanks Antti
> 
> The AT45D081 looks good with 1 M  Byte or 8 M bits.
> 
> What about writing in AVR Basic and cleaning it in Disassembler.
> Any disassembler for microcontroller assembler?

Oh no, no need to go to disassembler :)
the source code for the AT45 test program is very simple so
it should be hard to rewrite into assembler if needed, I downloaded
the demo project file and relevant include files to AVR Basic Support 
forum here on egroups, just goto files area and download at45.zip

this is working code (i.e. has been tested)

antti

I am trying to explain to my son(18 years old) what an interrupt is
on the processor? and flip flopboard.
It seems that he disagrees with me and 
I do NOT think he got it right. He is missing 
some details.

I have tried to explain to him what is an interrupt
but I think I am confusing the issue.
I always finish by explaining the entire history of
computers and the electrical aspect of the processor
and the gates. Instead of being a 1 minute explanation
it finishes with a 5 minutes explanation.

I know I am confusing the issue but that the way 
I understand it.
I come from an electronic background and he does NOT.

If any one has a simple explanation for the interrupt,
 a few lines long, this will be really appreciated.
Cheers  Guy

At 00:13 9/13/2000 -0000, Guy North wrote:

>I am trying to explain to my son(18 years old) what an interrupt is
>on the processor? and flip flopboard.
>If any one has a simple explanation for the interrupt,
> a few lines long, this will be really appreciated.
>Cheers  Guy 

An interrupt is an asynchronous input or event to a system which causes it
to unconditionally branch, in a timely manner, from its current execution
location to a different one.

Interrupts can be external (a switch input, pen touch on a PDA screen, or
other signal, level or edge sensitive) or internal (a timer or counter or a
serial I/O buffer). The system could be a hardware state machine or a
controller executing some sequence of instructions. The system can respond
"at once", making it a "real-time" interrupt, or defer response to some
later time. The time from the interrupt event to the system response is
'latency'. Interpreters don't generally support real-time interrupts, so
they have high latency. A real-time interrrupt implies that the system code
(if it is executing code) be 're-entrant', i.e., another instance of the
same code can be instantiated by the interrupt handler. For example a math
routine such as a long multiply could get interrupted and branch to another
instance of the same math routine. The code to which execution branches is
the 'interrupt handler'. When the handler completes, execution generally
returns to the place of execution at the time of interrupt.

I've probably forgotten something. There are about a thousand other
subtleties around the topic. I checked in several texts here in the
Systronix technical library and to my surprise there was no concise
definition, just an assumption that the reader already knew what an
interrupt was...

So there are 'a few lines'. 

- Bruce
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I am trying to explain to my son(18 years old) what an interrupt is
on the processor? and flip flopboard.
It seems that he disagrees with me and
I do NOT think he got it right. He is missing
some details.

I have tried to explain to him what is an interrupt
but I think I am confusing the issue.
I always finish by explaining the entire history of
computers and the electrical aspect of the processor
and the gates. Instead of being a 1 minute explanation
it finishes with a 5 minutes explanation.

I know I am confusing the issue but that the way
I understand it.
I come from an electronic background and he does NOT.

If any one has a simple explanation for the interrupt,
 a few lines long, this will be really appreciated.
Cheers  Guy
 

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Leon Blakeley
CFA Communications
Ph (03) 92628400
Fax  (03) 92628383

PO Box 701
Mt. Waverley
3149
 

> From: "Guy North" <aufempen@d...>

> I am trying to explain to my son(18 years old) what an interrupt is
> on the processor? and flip flopboard.
> It seems that he disagrees with me and
> I do NOT think he got it right. He is missing
> some details.
>
> I have tried to explain to him what is an interrupt
> but I think I am confusing the issue.
> I always finish by explaining the entire history of
> computers and the electrical aspect of the processor
> and the gates. Instead of being a 1 minute explanation
> it finishes with a 5 minutes explanation.
>
> I know I am confusing the issue but that the way
> I understand it.
> I come from an electronic background and he does NOT.
>
> If any one has a simple explanation for the interrupt,
>  a few lines long, this will be really appreciated.


OK, I'll give it a go. I've pitched this fairly simple 'cos you don't say
what level of technical understanding he has.

I've also made it very general - different processors implement things
differently but most if not all are similar to this.  There are all kinds of
tricky details you need to be aware of for each processor. Nothing really
beats reading the datasheet all the way through several times - then reading
it again.


------------------------------------------------

An interrupt is a trigger event that is recognised by the microprocessor.

It can be something that happens externally e.g. the change of input signal
on a pin - or something that happens internally e.g. a built-in counter
(timer) reaching the end of its count.

The interrupt event causes the currently running program to stop whatever
it's doing (hence the name) and forces it to execute some different code
instead (the interrupt handler routine).

The processor has a register (storage place for a number), usually called
the Program Counter, which tells it where the next line of program to be
executed is.

Mostly this just increments from one item of code to the next unless the
programmer has specifically told it to jump to another part of the program.

When an interrupt occurs the processor is told to go to a particular part of
the code called the interrupt handler, this is code the programmer has
written to deal with the event that caused the interrupt.

Inside the processor are storage locations called flags which are just
storage boxes that can be set to indicate on or off. These are used to
indicate various conditions and events inside the chip.

Some flags are used to say what has caused the interrupt (time-out, external
pin change, data input etc.).  By checking these flags in code the
programmer can cause the processor to do whatever he/she needs to do when
the flagged event happens. A similar set of flags can be used enable or
disable any or all interrupts from effecting the processor.


A solid example might help. Lets assume we have a simple moulding process we
wish to control. The processor checks several parameters and reports back to
a control room. The things it measures are e.g. temperature of the contents
of a liquid storage tank, number of items produced (with an "electric eye"
on the output conveyor belt) and probably other stuff.

One way to write this program would be for the processor to monitor this
stuff and do whatever is needed with the information, e.g. counting items
made and notifying the packing department, controlling the tank heater, etc.

You could have a level sensor in the tank to cause an interrupt if the fluid
level is too low. The processor would then stop its normal program and go to
the interrupt routine which might e.g. stop the moulding machine, turn off
the tank heater, print a record of what happened and sound an alarm to call
the maintenance staff.



-------------------------------------------------------

Well, not as few lines as you might have liked, but it probably shows the
basics for an interested, slightly techie person. Apologies if I've pitched
this too low. Let me know and I'll send a full-on version.



Cheers,

Andy.





.

Hello Guy

> I am trying to explain to my son (18 years old) what an interrupt is
> on the processor? and flip flopboard.

Here's a one line explanation my students seem to understand:

    "An interrupt is a subroutine call made by the hardware"

It's caused by something external to your program - (timers expiring,
characters received ...). You don't know exactly when it's going to happen, so
you need to save & restore any changed registers.

For each event:
  - when it happens, what do you want to do?
  - put this action into interrupt handling subroutine

Cheers
Giovanni
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